Jonathan Van Ness got into an intense conversation about trans and intersex rights on a new episode of Dax Shepard’s podcast, and the encounter ended in tears.
Van Ness, who identifies as nonbinary and trans, appeared on Armchair Expert in an episode that dropped earlier this week. When the conversation turned to trans rights — specifically, gender-affirming care for trans youth — Shepard admitted that the idea makes some “uncomfortable.”
“Some people are very uncomfortable about teenagers transitioning,” he said. “How do we know that the person’s not gonna change their mind? Then there’s another counterargument. If they kill themselves, then that’s really f**king permanent… To even question it makes you an enemy. I don’t think that’s the way forward.”
Van Ness replied that it was “disappointing” to hear from Shepard and others that claim they’re just trying to protect women when they exclude trans kids from sports.
“I’m a nonbinary f**king trans person,” Van Ness explained. “When I talk to my dad or people who say similar things, it’s hard to be cool through that… I’m not calling you a transphobe. You cannot be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies or beliefs and not be transphobic.”
Though Shepard apologized later in the episode, the encounter still left Van Ness in tears.
“I could just cry because I’m so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included,” they said. “I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you I am very tired.”
Van Ness continued the conversation on their Instagram page, posting to their Story about the episode, according to Us Weekly.
“I don’t quite have words for this yet but I will someday,” Van Ness captioned the post.
They also shared a video in response to Megyn Kelly mocking their tearful statements on her SiriusXM radio show.
“I’m tired too,” Kelly said in the clip. “I’m tired of having to stand up for my daughter’s right to play sports with other girls.”
“If it weren’t so sad it would be funny,” Van Ness captioned the video.
For his part, Shepard posted about the episode of Armchair Expert but has yet to comment publicly on his discussion with Van Ness.
“I’ve been a @jvn fan since Gay Of Thrones,” he wrote on his Instagram, referencing Van Ness’ Game of Thrones recap web series. “Jonathan even convinced me to buy beard oil and green tint moisturizer.”
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